 Adoption Subscribe   
  From:  karen (karen10051)   2/1/2002 6:52 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 28)  
 
  306.1  
 
Let me say from the outset i have absolutely no opinion on this, so dont worry, I am not starting something. I was on another forum and have heard people say that adoption is against God's will. They quote the scripture about Solomon giving a child back to a prostitute to raise in a brothel. 
Can anyone give me any insight? 

karen



  
  
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  From:  123four   2/1/2002 9:51 am  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (2 of 28)  
 
  306.2 in reply to 306.1  
 
Adoption is not against the scripture 
at all. In fact, we are told to take 
care of orphans-this meaning in whatever 
way that we can, such as offerings,gifts 
time, and possibly even adoption. 
King Solomon was very wise, as wisdom was 
a gift to him from God. There were 2 mothers, 
both harlots. One of the mother's child 
died during the night. This mother, placed 
her dead child in the arms of the other 
mother, who had the living child. The mother 
of the dead child, took the living baby and 
left her dead baby in the other mother's 
arms. On awakening the mother realized this 
horrible trick had been played on her. The 
women went before the judge - King Solomon. 
He knew, because of his wisdom how the 
truth would come out in this situation. 
He offered to have the child cut in half 
and each mother get half of the child. 
The true mother showed her love for her 
child by crying out "NO"-because she 
didn't want her child killed. The other 
woman said nothing. By this, Solomon 
discerned that the mother, who had the 
love of a mother toward her child was 
the real mother. 

There is no mention of both women or 
either woman living in a brothel, 
but only that the 2 women lived in 
the same house.This story is not 
about adoption at all, but was the 
trial to determine who was the 
mother of the child. This was done, 
and adoption was never a question 
or request here. 

It's all in the scripture for you 
to read. 

Your next question will most likely 
be -"if Christians are to take care 
of the orphans,etc., then why would 
Solomon cut a baby in half. Isn't 
that wrong?" lol lol 

He said that he would to discern the 
hearts of the 2 women, knowing full 
well, the one who loved the baby 
would beg him not to kill it. He was 
right. 

To this day, King Solomon is known 
for his wisdom, that was God given. 
God honored him with wealth as well, 
since he did not ask God for wealth 
but for wisdom to rule right and in 
honor over the people. 



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Edited 2/1/02 12:56:11 PM ET by 123four 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   2/1/2002 10:19 am  
To:  123four   (3 of 28)  
 
  306.3 in reply to 306.2  
 
Thank you for your response. I believe the discussion did not concern orphans, but children who are given up for adoption, either willingly or unwillingly with birth parents who are still alive. 
karen



  
  
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  From:  123four   2/1/2002 10:29 am  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (4 of 28)  
 
  306.4 in reply to 306.3  
 
Wasn't your question about 'adoption' 
of children-and whether or not God 
approved? That's what I thought it 
was. That's why I explained the 
scripture about Solomon to you. You 
were the one who mentioned the 
scripture about Solomon,as I recall. 




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Edited 2/1/02 1:32:51 PM ET by 123four 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   2/1/2002 10:43 am  
To:  123four   (5 of 28)  
 
  306.5 in reply to 306.4  
 
Thank you for your kind reply. I regret that i was not clear enough. i was engaged in a discussion on a different forum, where they were discussing adoption of children from a birthmother who was living. Her arguement in part went as follows: 
***Or look at what Solomon did with a prostitute who wanted to adopt another prostitute's baby when her own baby died. He returned the child to the mother, who lived in a brothel - this was called in scripture, "the wisdom of God being dispensed by the word of Solomon the King", and yet, every Christian I have run that scenario past, has advocated removing the child from the mother. 
Keeping children and mothers together in all but the very worst cases of mental degeneration in the mother, is "the wisdom of God" according to scripture. **** 

I appreciate you clearing that up for me...I am quite familiar with the story of Solomon and his threat to cut a baby in half in order to determine the real mother. This sounded like a different story entirely!! I just wondered if anyone knew of any biblical reasons against adoption of non-orphans. 

Thanks for your opinions. 

karen 




  
  
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  From:  123four   2/1/2002 10:50 am  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (6 of 28)  
 
  306.6 in reply to 306.5  
 
Clearly that person did not know the 
scripture about Solomon nor other 
scripture. 
I know of no scripture that prohibits 
adoption. I suppose there is some 
scripture someone could twist, tho, 
similar to the twisted scripture 
from the poster that you quoted. 

 
  
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  From:  TigerRaj   2/3/2002 10:14 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (7 of 28)  
 
  306.7 in reply to 306.5  
 
Karen, have you asked "her" where in Scripture it gives such instruction?  
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   2/4/2002 4:12 am  
To:  TigerRaj   (8 of 28)  
 
  306.8 in reply to 306.7  
 
She gave a bunch of scriptural references which she had interpreted as such..As you probably know, everyone thinks their interpretation is correct.


  
  
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  From:  TigerRaj   2/5/2002 4:07 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (9 of 28)  
 
  306.9 in reply to 306.8  
 
Would you mind sharing with me any of those scriptural references shae gave? If not here, feel freee to email them to me. The reason I ask for them is that I have never heard of such a thing and would like to understand if I have missed something or ??? 
Thank you.
 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   2/5/2002 4:15 pm  
To:  TigerRaj   (10 of 28)  
 
  306.10 in reply to 306.9  
 
She said what i quoted above, and also about Moses being adopted. I think she had it all wrong...


  
  
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  From:  BenRDeemed (ScottR1982)   2/5/2002 4:20 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (11 of 28)  
 
  306.11 in reply to 306.1  
 
Karen, 
Grace and peace to you... 

Jesus was adopted by Joseph, as were Ephraim and Manasseh by Jacob (Genesis 48:16). 

Further, our relationship with God the Father is described as adoption (Romans 8), so I find it hard to believe that God would be against adoption. 


The Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit 
Scott 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   2/5/2002 4:22 pm  
To:  BenRDeemed (ScottR1982)   (12 of 28)  
 
  306.12 in reply to 306.11  
 
*smiles* just checking! thanks for all the good biblical references.


  
  
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  From:  TigerRaj   2/5/2002 4:33 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (13 of 28)  
 
  306.13 in reply to 306.10  
 
Ok, thank you. I'm not familiar with that part od Scripture, so I guess I will be reading up on Solomon tonight. [grin] 
  
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  From:  TigerRaj   2/5/2002 7:14 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (14 of 28)  
 
  306.14 in reply to 306.10  
 
***Or look at what Solomon did with a prostitute who wanted to adopt another prostitute's baby when her own baby died. He returned the child to the mother, who lived in a brothel - this was called in scripture, "the wisdom of God being dispensed by the word of Solomon the King", and yet, every Christian I have run that scenario past, has advocated removing the child from the mother. Keeping children and mothers together in all but the very worst cases of mental degeneration in the mother, is "the wisdom of God" according to scripture. **** 
"She said what i quoted above, and also about Moses being adopted. I think she had it all wrong..."
----------

If she said exactly what you "quoted", then yes, she did have it all wrong. There was no "adoption" taking place. One woman switched her baby who had died for the other woman's baby. Then she tried to say that the other woman was lying. It doesn't have anything to do with adoption. You can read the true account of what happened in 1st Kings, chapter 3, verses 16-28 (through the end of that chapter). 

Might I suggest that when you see something like that on one of these forums, that you take it to your Bible study group or cell/small group meeting or to one of your church elders - like perhaps your pastor/minister or a lay person or a teacher in the church. 

If you are not attending any church, I strongly suggest that you pray to God for guidance in finding a church. (As beleivers in the ressurection, we are instructed to gather together from time to time, to help and encourage one another in the body of Christ. If we alienate ourselves from the body, we are in error.) 

May the Word of Christ dwell in you richly. 

 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   2/6/2002 7:27 am  
To:  TigerRaj   (15 of 28)  
 
  306.15 in reply to 306.14  
 
***Might I suggest that when you see something like that on one of these forums, that you take it to your Bible study group or cell/small group meeting or to one of your church elders - like perhaps your pastor/minister or a lay person or a teacher in the church. **** 
Seems i got alot of good information right here *smiles*...the people here are a good resource. Even you learned something about some scripture you are not familiar with. 

Having said that, you presume alot. 




  
  
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  From:  TigerRaj   2/6/2002 8:11 am  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (16 of 28)  
 
  306.16 in reply to 306.15  
 
"Even you learned something about some scripture you are not familiar with."
----------
Actually, I didn't learn anything new. I was familiar with the Scripture I passed along to you. What I wasn't familiar with was what you quoted as the other gal saying. So I went and double checked to be sure I hadn't overlooked and/or forgotten something, before I said anything further. 

Grace be with you.
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   2/12/2002 1:26 pm  
To:  BenRDeemed (ScottR1982)   (17 of 28)  
 
  306.17 in reply to 306.11  
 
Dear Scott....(and all other's in the forum) 

As a Christian and a mother who was made to adopt out her infant I do challenge you to support with scripture any reference to infants and mothers being seperated at birth or shortly afterwards as being being "God's Will". 

We all agree true orphans need parents and children who are abused or neglected need to be protected. Barring those two circumstances where does scripture promote/endorse/support infants being removed from single mothers and placed into adoption? 

And a correction to Jacob adopting ...they were his own 2 biological grandchildren....he was not changing their idenity or heritage or names....he was accepting them as israelites even though their mother was Egyptian. Joseph was Jesus step father as scripture makes it very clear who Jesus biological father was....GOD. Jesus identity was never altered or changed and he remained with his biological mother. 

Regards, 
R/C 




 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   2/12/2002 1:44 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (18 of 28)  
 
  306.18 in reply to 306.8  
 

Dear karen.... 
Can you find a scripture or Bible reference ( story ) where seperating a baby from a living mother (via adoption) is cited? Where exactly in scripture is adoption of infants (via seperation from a living mother) supported? 

God does adopt we Christians into His kingdom BUT we are very conscious of making a decision to become His spiritual/redeemed child.....we choose to follow Him...we are not adopted into His kingdom as an infant but at a minimum when we reach the age of reason. Also, God is already our Creator whether we acknowledge His claim/right to us or not, does not negate the fact He already by being our Creator has a right to His children's lives. 

Most Christians have NEVER given modern adoption practices a second thought...just have excepted what the world deems right. Dig into your Bible and really look at adoption... it is nothing loke what modern day social changers made it into. 

Regards, 
RachelsChild
 
  
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  From:  BenRDeemed (ScottR1982)   2/12/2002 2:08 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (19 of 28)  
 
  306.19 in reply to 306.17  
 
Rachel, 
Grace and peace to you 

>As a Christian and a mother who was made to adopt out her infant I do challenge you to support with scripture any reference to infants and mothers being seperated at birth or shortly afterwards as being being "God's Will". 

I don't know of any in scripture. But then, I know of no verses calling on single mothers to keep their babies either regardless of circumstances. You wording sounds as if you were forced into adopting out you child, I am sorry that happened. Are you in contact with the child? 

>We all agree true orphans need parents and children who are abused or neglected need to be protected. Barring those two circumstances where does scripture promote/endorse/support infants being removed from single mothers and placed into adoption? 

Since scripture does not promote or condemn a mother giving a child up for adoption, it is covered by Romans 14:23. What is done in faith is not sin, what is done outside of faith is sin. 

>And a correction to Jacob adopting ...they were his own 2 biological grandchildren....he was not changing their idenity or heritage or names....he was accepting them as israelites even though their mother was Egyptian. Joseph was Jesus step father as scripture makes it very clear who Jesus biological father was....GOD. Jesus identity was never altered or changed and he remained with his biological mother. 

Jacob did change their identity. Instead of being family heads in the tribe of Joseph, they became equal with their uncles in having their own tribes. Their identity was changed, but not in a "western culture" way. 

As to Joseph, Jesus had to be adopted by Joseph or He would not be in the kingly line. It is Jesus' adoption by Joseph that gave Him the human legal claim to the throne of David. Yes, that is small compared to being God, but it is a real step none-the-less. 

---- 

Again, I want to reiterate, that I am sorry for your circumstances. I will encourage you that as a Christian, God works all things for our good, He will do so in that case as well (Romans 8:28). I pray for God's blessings on you. 


The Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit 
Scott 
  
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   From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   2/12/2002 2:38 pm  
To:  BenRDeemed (ScottR1982)   (20 of 28)  
 
  306.20 in reply to 306.19  
 
Scott... 

Thanks.... still disagree on the changing of identity of the two grandsons...their identity and heritage were still found within the blood family lines. 

As for no biblical mention of single mothers to keep their children...scripture does not cite married women to keep their children either. A pregnant women is neither Miss or Mrs. but pregnant....a mother is a mother... married or single...or widowed. In either case marital status does not negate or determine motherhood. What is clear in scripture is that the rearing of ones own child is understood as what a mother does. Circumventing it via adoption or abortion is not what God designed by nature. 

Not to quibble but Mary is also related to King David through biology ( through David's son Nathan ) As I understand Jewish law...Jesus, by his mother's biology was Jewish (one must have a Jewish mother to be Jewish)but the legal lineage of a kingly line was determined by male succesion...so yes Jesus had a legal right to David's throne through Joseph being his legal step parent but by blood he also had the PHYSICAL seed (biology)of David in Him. Scripture did say David would have his real physical seed on the throne forever. Jesus is the real physical seed of David through his biological mother Mary....not through Joseph because adoption or step parenting CANNOT produce biology. 

I do appreciate your response. Adoption is a very un studied subject in Christian circles and I do thank you for at least being willing to explore some issues of it. 

RachelsChild 
 
  
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From:  BenRDeemed (ScottR1982)   2/12/2002 3:18 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (21 of 28)  
 
  306.21 in reply to 306.20  
 
Rachel, 
Grace and peace to you... 

Jacob ... we agree to disagree on the significance. 

Joseph ... 
David was told that the Messiah would come through his "loins" and that is fulfilled in Mary. One of David's great-great...-great grandsons Coniah (or Jeconiah) was told that none that came through his "loins" would ever be king. So Jesus could not be the son of Jeconiah (by blood) and be king. The dilemna is solved by the adoption of Jesus by Joseph. 
Step parents do adopt their step-children quite often. Two of my brothers and one of my sisters are family by adoption in this manner. 

I am willing to discuss many subjects, but I tend to lean towards the "if it is expressly prohibited or prohibited in principle" then it is a matter of faith. 

Examples of expressly prohibited would be all sex outside of marriage. Examples of prohibited in principle would be the recreational use of narcotics (similar to drunkeness). 

There are two famous examples of young children (probably infants) being adopted out of married families. Moses and Samuel. Moses was adopted by Pharoah's daughter, Samuel by Eli the priest. Well technically in Samuel's case, he was promised to God and delivered by his mother to Eli after she weaned him. 

I think a single mother needs to think of what is in the best interest of her child. It may be keeping the child, it may be giving it up for adoption. I think it varies, depending on far too many specific circumstances for me to judge either way. 

I do understand how a birth mother may regret giving their child up for adoption, and I would expect that regardless of how well thought out and planned it was. I regret many decisions I made in the past, but I also understand that God's love covers it all. 


The Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit 
Scott 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   2/12/2002 4:02 pm  
To:  ALL   (22 of 28)  
 
  306.22 in reply to 306.21  
 
I know of Christian adoption agencies (not just in word but deed if you know what I mean)..who exist as an alternate to ABORTION. 
These agencies do everything they can to convince the mother to keep her child, even when she/he is born. They provide the needed counseling as well as money for maternity clothes, doctor visits etc. However, if the mother simply is not ready to give the child the necessary support (emotional, financial etc.) then the adoption proceeds. 

Again, this is an alternate to the millions of babies murdered. 

I think there is nothing unChristlike in this scenario. 
 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   2/12/2002 4:12 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (23 of 28)  
 
  306.23 in reply to 306.18  
 
Dear Rachelschild... 
I no longer have any interest in this discussion, having been banned from Origins for absolutely no reason whatsoever, haveing never posted there. As well, i was mocked for being a Christian. 

I apologize, but someone else will have to engage in this discussion with you. 

peace, 





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Edited 2/12/2002 7:13:49 PM ET by karen  
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   2/12/2002 4:23 pm  
To:  BenRDeemed (ScottR1982)   (24 of 28)  
 
  306.24 in reply to 306.21  
 
Hi Scott..... 

No, disagree.. scripture clearly says Jeasus is a/the literal Son of David....biology cannot be adopted...it is physically replicated or else it is not genuine. Jesus is the literal son (physical seed of King David) through the biology of his mother Mary. However, it is also fascinating that Joseph and Mary's physical descent from king David (through Solomon and Nathan) were merged with both of them being the physical seed of Zorababel. Joseph from Abiud his eldest son and Mary from Rhesa his youngest son. ( Luke 3;23 & 27 1 Chron 3:17 ) Luke being Mary's geneology Matthew being Joseph's ( Matthew 1:2 matthew 1:23, 27 ) From Zorababel the branches of King David's descendents were reunited by the marriage of Salithiel with the daughter of Neri. Jesus had all the rights and priviledges of the whole family of David. God spent a lot of time and effort recording biological chronologies and although we may find it tedious, boring or irrelevent in Western thought...they are very importent and significant to God. 

Moses was not adopted as an infant. And his mother was forced not to raise him. But even when he was adopted out he did not loose his idenity or heritage...he new he was a Hebrew... he knew the names of his mother and father...and eventually returned to live with his own people and family and identified himself with his biological heritage (Hebrew) not his adopted heritage (Egyptian) His closest associates were his biological brother Aaron and his biological sister Mariam. Modern adoption practices remove/withhold all biology and heritage from the adopted...and substitute the adopted biology/heritage as if the child were born into that. It is interesrting and significant to note that the only adoption story in the Bible (by a non family member)does not have any of the elements of lossed identity or lies that modern adoption practices today. One might ask why? 

I do not regret my decision ....I was not allowed to keep my child....the adoption was not a decision I made. 

Regards, 
R/C
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   2/12/2002 6:06 pm  
To:  karen (karen10051)   (25 of 28)  
 
  306.25 in reply to 306.23  
 

Dear Karen... 
I don't get the connection between Origins and discussing adoption but if the subject is of no interest to you, I apologise. You had originally started this thread, in this forum so that is why I posted to you. 

RachelsChild
 
  
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  From:  karen (karen10051)   2/12/2002 6:55 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (26 of 28)  
 
  306.26 in reply to 306.25  
 
It was of great interest to me, but i also recognize you from Origins..and...well, lets just let that rest.


  
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   2/13/2002 4:49 pm  
To:  123four   (27 of 28)  
 
  306.27 in reply to 306.2  
 
Hi: 

Perhaps I can explain how this bible story of King Solomon's wise decision relates to the subject of adoption. This example of a mother being willing to give up her child to protect it's life is often used by adoption advocates as a Biblical text to persuade single mothers to release their child to adoption. Often cited is the example the "real" mother was willing to sacrifice her own motherhood to save her son. However, in my opinion, that biblical example of what a loving mother will do to save her baby has no parallel to adopting out of an infant..in fact it is the story of a single mother fighting to keep her child and winning the heart of a king to secure that. 

If you look at the broader context of the story it is that of two unmarried women and two fatheless newborn boys. One child dies and the mother of the dead child steals the living child of the other single mother.( this mother had done nothing to neglect or harm her baby. (vs 21) The mother of the living child had no husband to protect she or her new born son....so she takes her circumstances to the King who was (by commandment)her fatherless son's protection. (Deut. 24: 18-22, 27:19 Job 24;9 Isaiah 1:17 etc) 

King Solomon does not make any decision, ruling or comment on the motherly fitness or unwedness of the two mothers.( no social engineering/rearranging of parents via adoption) Instead he focuses on the real issue of motherhood, a mother's love for her own baby. (and this harlot mother loved her baby despite her less then stellar circumstances)Recognizing her sacrificial love as the earmarks of motherhood, he justly restores back to her,her baby to raise. 

The modern parallel should speak to the hearts of Christian's who counsel young single mothers (using this passage of scripture)to adopt out their children to married but childless couples. Indeed this scripture does not mention adoption at all but it does recognize that single mothers and fatherless babies are indeed a family unit. 

Regards, 
R/C 


 
  
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   From:  123four   2/13/2002 6:03 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (28 of 28)  
 
  306.28 in reply to 306.27  
 
I haven't heard of this scripture being 
used as you say. I was answering Karen's 
post. She is the one who brought up the 
scripture and I explained it to her as 
someone had given her a rather bizarre 
interpretation of the scripture. 
I have no objections at all in someone 
adopting a baby in order that he/she 
will not be killed. It's the best 
alternative as far as I can tell.
 
  
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