Homosexuality (1 views) Subscribe   
  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/21/2001 12:44 pm  
To:  ALL   (1 of 75)  
 
  39.1  
 
Homosexuality 
Here are some Excellent resources regarding the Homosexual topic. 

Book  Coming out Straight by Richard Cohen 
Web Site  www.gaytostraight.org 

Also the Widly Acclaimed Organization Exodus International. 
www.ExodusNorthAmerica.org 

I believe that it is the Christian position to Love everyone with the same Love that Jesus loves us. 

I know very little about this topic and am not presenting myself as someone who does. But I am in favor of setting aside emotions and getting past stereotypes to present the love of Jesus to everyone. 

David A. BrownBasic Christian: Forum 

Edited 6/5/2001 1:07:13 PM ET by DAVIDABROWN 

Edited 6/5/2001 1:08:17 PM ET by DAVIDABROWN 



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Edited 6/5/2001 1:09:37 PM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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  From:  Rowan (POTIONS)    6/1/2001 8:19 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (2 of 75)  
 
  39.2 in reply to 39.1  
 
Are you also a believer in segregation? Or separatism?

Contemplate the little things in life and then enjoy them all!..... Rowan





Many thanks to Valcali at Creative Signatures, who took my dream and made it real! 


Creative Signatures


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  From:  Rowan (POTIONS)    6/1/2001 8:23 pm  
To:  Rowan (POTIONS)    (3 of 75)  
 
  39.3 in reply to 39.2  
 
How do you feel about Darwin?

Contemplate the little things in life and then enjoy them all!..... Rowan





Many thanks to Valcali at Creative Signatures, who took my dream and made it real! 


Creative Signatures


For wonderful herbal products, please go to:


Medicine Song's Moon Lair

For you perfume or aroma items, please visit me at:


Common Scents Perfumes

 
  
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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    6/1/2001 10:35 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (4 of 75)  
 
  39.4 in reply to 39.1  
 
You ARE????? Sure coulda fooled me.....

 
For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
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Seekers of Olde Knowledge
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  From:  BURRTON   6/3/2001 12:08 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (5 of 75)  
 
  39.5 in reply to 39.1  
 
Nope, that attitude is very damaging. 
To attempt to change someone born a certain way 
IS to play God. Surely you don't think this is possible. 
The site address you posted implies one can change from gay to straight. Is'nt that like saying you have green eyes but 
if you REALLY want them to be blue, just ask God? 
If God is perfect, obviously everyone is exactly 
the way he wants them to be. He created them, after all. 
 
  
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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    6/3/2001 8:20 am  
To:  BURRTON   (6 of 75)  
 
  39.6 in reply to 39.5  
 
Amen!!!! Dave likes to say that myself and others like ME are manipulators....But he does not see that his wanting there to be No homosexuals, no Different Christians than himself, and NO ONE WHO THINKS for THEMSELVES as a Manipulation....By his standards, God created HIM....and everyone else is an Abomination....TSK tsk tsk.... What a piece of work Dave is....does Zealot come to mind? Respectfully, Medicine Song

 
For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....
Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

COMMON SCENTS !


   
 
  
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  From:  dismas13   6/5/2001 5:49 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (7 of 75)  
 
  39.7 in reply to 39.1  
 
David,the proposition of going from gay to straight is not in my understanding of things, possible.There seems to be enough scientific evidence available to suggest that one's sexual orientation may in fact be biologically decided by the time of one's birth or if not then, soon there after.There is a very in-depth study that was just published in the British equivalent of JAMA, that goes to great lengths to explain how sexual preference(gay or straight) is determined by the Hyperthalmus region of the brain.If this and other scientific evidence is only partly correct, then one's sexual orientation is what it is, naturally. 
Of course many fundamentalists would have you believe that the biblical quotations from Romans, Leviticus et al.,is proof enough of the need to go straight.But even here, recent theological and historical studies are showing that most condemnations of homosexuality are really more concerned with the observance of the Jewish Holiness Codes as they pertain to maintaining ethnic purity among the Jewish people. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/5/2001 10:13 am  
To:  dismas13   (8 of 75)  
 
  39.8 in reply to 39.7  
 
There are at least a couple of problems with your premise that homosexuals are incapable of a change in behavior. 
First it would be news to the thousands of people who do change. The vast numbers of people that are departing the homosexual lifestyle each year, leave your statement hollow at best. www.gaytostraight.org is a web site from the author of such a person. If you doubt the ability of people to change or if you have any questions I suggest that you contact him. Exodus International www.ExodusNorthAmerica.org is another thriving movement of people who have left that lifestyle. 

Second, I find this teaching that homosexuality is genetic by cause to be very dangerous. Our society is vigorously categorizing people. Scientist are right now at this moment building cases to categorize people based on genetics as violent, alcoholic, abusers, chemical dependant, criminal, homosexual, and a host of other categories. This type of genetic categorization is dangerous because it does not give people the Freedom to change. If someone commits a violent crime it is considered their biological makeup which cannot be changed, instead of being rightly called their Sin nature which can be changed. This is the same type of categorizing that Hitler did to people and the results will be the same that Hitler imposed, dont like the problem then get rid of the people because they are incapable of change. According to the Hilters of the world just wipe out the biological inferior and what a great place earth would be to live. 

Christianity is the exact opposite. Jesus can distinguish between sin and people and Jesus Loves people. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/5/2001 5:47 pm  
To:  BURRTON   (9 of 75)  
 
  39.9 in reply to 39.5  
 
BURRTON wrote
Nope, that attitude is very damaging.
To attempt to change someone born a certain way IS to play God. Surely you don't think this is possible.
The site address you posted implies one can change from gay to straight. Is'nt that like saying you have green eyes but if you REALLY want them to be blue, just ask God?
If God is perfect, obviously everyone is exactly the way he wants them to be. He created them, after all.
  We humans can be very strange about our sexuality.  I think it is generally agreed, at least among Christians, Jews, and Moslems, that God intended that sexual intimacy should be reserved for the relationship between a man and a woman to whom he is married.  But there are many people who, at a biological level, are programmed to seek sexual intimacy in other forms, with homosexuality being one of these forms.  Another form that this takes is pedophilia, in which a person seeks sexual intimacy with children.  While we may not all agree about homosexuality, I think we will nearly all agree that pedophilia is harmful and destructive, and that it is evil to engage in it.  The question I have to ask is whether you believe that pedophiles are  exactly the way [God] wants them to be.  If we seek to help pedophiles to overcome their desire for sex with children, and perhaps even to help them to be able to form normal, healthy sexual relationships with a spouse, would this constitute playing God?



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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/5/2001 5:58 pm  
To:  dismas13   (10 of 75)  
 
  39.10 in reply to 39.7  
 
DISMAS13 wrote:
Of course many fundamentalists would have you believe that the biblical quotations from Romans, Leviticus et al.,is proof enough of the need to go straight.But even here, recent theological and historical studies are showing that most condemnations of homosexuality are really more concerned with the observance of the Jewish Holiness Codes as they pertain to maintaining ethnic purity among the Jewish people.
  On the face of it, what you are saying here seems absurd.  Perhaps I am missing something.  Clearly, homosexuality is not conducive to procreation, and I do not believe that anyone in Biblicals times ever thought otherwise.  So how could homosexuality have possibly ever been seen as a threat to any notion of ethnic purity?  If ethnic purity was the primary concern, then I think homosexuality would have been seen as a good thing, since it obviously had the effect of removing the most impure and degenerate elements from the gene pool.



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  From:  BURRTON   6/6/2001 12:04 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (11 of 75)  
 
  39.11 in reply to 39.8  
 
Bottom line, sexuality is pre-determined, 
I know, I'm gay. 
I don't actually want to be, but I'm stuck, 
so to speak, pre-wired from the factory. 
Praying to something does'nt change was is. 
Those thousands of people you claim that have 
"changed" either purposely lied about it 
or have been fooling themselves. 
David, if you are not gay, politely, remain silent. 
You know nothing about it. 
  
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  From:  BURRTON   6/6/2001 12:07 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (12 of 75)  
 
  39.12 in reply to 39.9  
 
I see a big difference between pedophilia and homosexuality. 
Pedophilia, by the way, according to what I've read is committed 
mostly by heterosexual males. 
  
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  From:  BURRTON   6/6/2001 12:09 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (13 of 75)  
 
  39.13 in reply to 39.10  
 
Impure and degenerate? 
I forgot, if anything is different than you, 
it MUST be wrong. 
You sad, pompous man. 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/6/2001 2:42 am  
To:  BURRTON unread  (14 of 75)  
 
  39.14 in reply to 39.12  
 
BURRTON wrote:
I see a big difference between pedophilia and homosexuality.
  Both are only a matter of sexual orientation.  Both are, in some low-level way, wired to seek nonstandard forms of sexual intimacy.

  In your very own words, If God is perfect, obviously everyone is exactly the way he wants them to be. He created them, after all.  If this is true of homosexuals, then why is it not also just as true of pedophiles?  For that matter, why is this not every bit as true of every deviant and every criminal of every kind?  Is not, by your logic, the serial killer, the rapist, the drug addict, the prostitute, and the convenience store robber, exactly as God wants them to be?

  I think your statement that everyone is exactly the way [God] wants them to be is nonsense.  I think that all of us, to various degrees, fall short of what God wants us to be.  I think that what God wants of us is for us to seek to overcome our various shortcomings, to improve ourselves, to become closer to what he wants us to be.  Your statement is nothing more than an excuse for the weak-willed to neglect such efforts at self-improvement.



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  From:  dismas13   6/6/2001 4:35 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (15 of 75)  
 
  39.15 in reply to 39.8  
 
David,that's nice,disagree with someone's premise and compare him to Hitler.Nice touch.Remind me not to get you angry. 
  
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  From:  dismas13   6/6/2001 4:40 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (16 of 75)  
 
  39.16 in reply to 39.10  
 
Bob,let me get even more absurd, and refer you to two works that go into quite some detail."What The Bible Really Says About Homosexuality" by Father Daniel A. Helminiak,PhD., and "Stealing Jesus" by Bruce Bawer. 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/6/2001 7:41 am  
To:  dismas13   (17 of 75)  
 
  39.17 in reply to 39.15  
 
DISMAS13 wrote:
David,that's nice,disagree with someone's premise and compare him to Hitler.
  Perhaps David is unfamiliar with Godwin's Law.



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/6/2001 7:49 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (18 of 75)  
 
  39.18 in reply to 39.17  
 
There is another Law that says that those who forget the Past and do not learn the lessons from the past will fall into the same traps again and make the same mistakes over and over again. 
I guess its just how you look at it. 

BTW. My reference is that the policy of racial profiling is Nazi in nature. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum




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Edited 6/6/01 10:50:10 AM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/6/2001 9:42 am  
To:  BURRTON unread  (19 of 75)  
 
  39.19 in reply to 39.5  
 
God did not create anyone to be homosexual. There are current studies that prove that homosexuals can change. These studies have been done by athiests not Christians. 
Ruth


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   From:  dismas13   6/7/2001 5:00 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (20 of 75)  
 
  39.20 in reply to 39.17  
 
Bob, thanks for your post.I was'nt aware of that law but it's sure gratifying to know that it's existence is just one more bit of evidence to proove that the "christian right" is no more ingenious in their formulation of debate tactics as they are intuitive in their awareness of the human condition. 
  
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From:  Dr_Shock   6/13/2001 4:48 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (21 of 75)  
 
  39.21 in reply to 39.19  
 
After thinking about it for a long time, I have to conclude that homosexuallity is a mixture of genetic and psychological conditioning. A drug additct's child might have the addictive gene in their genetic code but it might never become active or may take on a different form (ie. overeating). Much as how schizophernia is triggered by a child's environment, it may be the case with homosexuals. Their parents might be wonderful caregivers, but problems from peers and other social circles trigger it at an eairly age only to surface during puberty. Perhaps homosexuality can be triggered by many different things some of which are just base psychological problems which can be fixed with counciling. 
But even then, you have to deal with the rule of thirds: One third will completely recover, one third will kinda-sorta recover and one third will show no improvement. 

However, no matter how you slice it, gay people are people, too. Most of them are productive members of society and believe in high fidelity based relationships. Unfortunately, the only ones you hear about on the news are the ones who do sick, preverted things. But you already know how the media works.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
"As with Columbine, isn't it sad that people can become so distressed with life that they are willing to drastically change it for everyone while those who are supposidly content aren't content enough to do the same for the better?"
 
  
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/21/2001 11:13 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (22 of 75)  
 
  39.22 in reply to 39.8  
 
Leave th poor little gays alone, they can't breed and they at least tend to be able to not push themselves on eveyone else so obnoxiously... remember Paul (The prejudiced) is th one who said in letters to romans about homosexuality being bad and that was mistransslated if you read the 'orriginal' latin texts it talks of homosexual prostitution... 
Now, as for there being a cure for homosexuality, the vast majority of these 'cure' groups tend to follow the same brainwashing techniques that major cults use and they also don't have th tendancy to truly be long term cures... 

Ignorance is bliss.... are you happy? 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/21/2001 12:23 pm  
To:  ALL   (23 of 75)  
 
  39.23 in reply to 39.19  
 
To Ruth and David: 
Both of you have made references to the "studies" that give factual evidence of gays being "turned straight". The points that both of you either missed or are neglecting to offer is that 1. there is a large portion of the population (most, in fact) that is considered to be SOME degree of bisexual in orientation and 2. there are significant numbers of cases of attempted "conversions" that failed. 

When these two data are included, the number of "conversions" is suspiciously close to that that would be expected for generally bisexual types that can "decide" based on personal convictions. 

In other words, the "many" examples of "conversions" were simply bisexually oriented people who were ABLE to make a choice, and did when they were convinced that only one choice was the right choice. 

This in no way supports the hypothesis that a gay person can choose to be straight, it only shows that a bisexual person can choose. The TRAP is that we tend to lump "bisexual" and "homosexual" in the same bucket, which is definitely as much an error as saying that "bisexual" and "heterosexual" are the same. All three are different.






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Edited 6/21/01 4:14:46 PM ET by SEABREN 
  
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/22/2001 1:40 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (25 of 75)  
 
  39.25 in reply to 39.23  
 
Have you ever seen any of the 'cured' homosexuals or talked with them at length? 
Much as I personally don't agree with the homsexual or polyamourous lifestyles, I do think that they have rights as human beings. Many of these camps are questionable at best with thier tactics for this 'cure' for homosexuality. The question becomes this, is it worth forcing someone to be something that they are not and forcing them to lie to thmselves in order to get into heaven when as was said earlier on this post, God can forgive any sin through faith in Jesus? 

If such is the case, why should this 'cure' be forced or placed upon them? 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/22/2001 2:04 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (26 of 75)  
 
  39.26 in reply to 39.25  
 
Well, you and I basically agree on the "rightness/wrongness" of the concept of conversion. While I am not gay nor would be comfortable living a gay lifestyle, it is not my choice to make others live and believe as I do. 
And yes, I have talked to both the "converted" and those that chose to remain the same. We had a speaker come to the company where I work that was a product of a "conversion" program that I talked to at length. I also have two very good friends who are lesbians who have told me countless experiences in their lives of attempts to "convert" form them personally when they were young and scared and from others when they were older and outspoken. The oldest one, 47, says she new she liked women as early as 6 years old. 

The other data that I referred to just comes from reading a lot and having a deep, curious interest in the subject because I find it both interesting and trajic (how society treats gays, when they are not doing anyone any harm, realistically - and don't say [not you] they "convert" kids, gays do nothing of the sort. The most they are guilty of, in general, is facilitating an already gay adolescent's passage into society. If one gay person is guilty of preying on a child for sex, it can be easily shown that there are 10 heterosexual pedophiles for that one. The numbers follow the statistical averages for all deviants of every group.)






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  From:  ManafterGod   6/27/2001 10:39 am  
To:  ALL   (27 of 75)  
 
  39.27 in reply to 39.26  
 
Oh come on guys, don't be blinded, don't refuse the truth for a lie. 
I can't stand gay people, I can't stand a guy having feelings for another guy, I can't stand people turning my Father's word into a lie, making it to no effect. 
Please, please, just take one time, one minute out of your time, get on your needs, pray, and ask God if this is true. If this is is word. Ask Him it is ok to be gay, ask Him if we should accept it, and for the homosexuals, take a time and ask God if you are doing the right thing. Ask Him did He make you like this, please. I ask you, I beg you, please talk with God, and not to man. I love you all, and I don't want to see any of you in hell because you didn't give God a chance to tell you right from wrong. 

I rather feel this kind of fire 



 Check out what the Holy Spirit is burning in the Holy Room! And see if you got the fire in you in my webpage!
 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/28/2001 4:22 am  
To:  ManafterGod   (28 of 75)  
 
  39.28 in reply to 39.27  
 
Ahem : the homo in homosexual (actually that should be homophile) comes from the greek Homoios, meaning equal. 
Jesus told everyone : "Love thy neighbours", a neighbour is someone who is next to you, someone who is next to you is your equal, ergo it's ok to be gay (A short cut for above reasoning: Jesus also said that "in the eyes of the father (God) we are all alike (=equal)", so your neighbours are your equals and you should love them.) 

And for those who say: "that doesn't refer to sex" I ask you where does it say that exactly? Does it have a little disclaimer, possibly with an asterik (=*) saying: "Warning: this statement does not aply to: sex and romantic love" 

and about the claim that God wrote the bible, does it say anywhere: 

The Bible, Jesus Christ, the virgin Mary and Moses are registered trademarks of JHWH 
(c)the beginning of times-The end of times, JHWH. 
Reproducing this book in part or whole, is punishable under divine law commandment 8. Maximum penalty: eternity in hell, minimal penalty: eternity in hell. 




 
  
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  From:  ManafterGod   6/28/2001 2:17 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (29 of 75)  
 
  39.29 in reply to 39.28  
 
Blah! Blah! Blah! yachakady smackady Blah! Blah! Blah! 
AHEM: Leviticus 18:22 'You shall NOT lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination (a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.). 

No! Hold on, you read this, and get it into your head, and think about what it says, especially if you want to be holy as the Lord your God is holy. 

Leviticus 20:13 'If a MAN lies with a male as HE lies with a woman, BOTH of them have committed AN ABOMINATION. THEY SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH (act of dying, end of life, total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant, the state of being dead. Grim Reaper, civil death, spiritual death. loss or absence of Divine Grace. eternal damnation). Their blood shall be upon them. 

Romans 1:22-27 Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchange the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever, Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the naturaly use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful (causing shame, disgraceful; indecent. Mortifying, dishonorable, ignominious, base.), and receiving in themselves the penalty (punished imposed or incurred for a violation of law, rule, or agreement. a disagreeable consequence of a person's actions or conduct) of their error (a deviation from accuracy or correctness; a mistake, as in action or speech. belief in something untrue; the holding of mistaken opinions. the condition of believing what is not true; a moral offense; wrongding; SIN) which was due (immediately owed; owing or owed, irrespective of whether the time of payment has arrived. owing or observed as a mortal or natural right. rightful; proper; fitting; adequate; sufficient; under the engagement as to time; expected to be ready, be present, or arrive, scheduled. attributable, as to a cuase. something due, owed, or naturally beling to someone. to credit a dislike or dishonorable person with something meritorious.). 

Any questions? 

Which fire would you like to feel?

 Check out what the Holy Spirit is burning in the Holy Room! And see if you got the fire in you in my webpage!
 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/28/2001 3:25 pm  
To:  ManafterGod   (30 of 75)  
 
  39.30 in reply to 39.29  
 
Leviticus 20:13 'If a MAN lies with a male as HE lies with a woman, BOTH of them have committed AN ABOMINATION. THEY SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH (act of dying, end of life, total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant, the state of being dead. Grim Reaper, civil death, spiritual death. loss or absence of Divine Grace. eternal damnation). Their blood shall be upon them. 
Thanks for posting that. It serves as one of the strongest reasons why people should think twice about taking the Bible literally. If you actually BELIEVE this verse is righteous, then I'd think you are just one act away from frying in the electric chair.

This is a statement made by a savage and ancient people with a bloody history and culture. If you can't see that then you have some real issues discerning reality.

Cheers.






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  From:  ManafterGod   6/28/2001 3:31 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (31 of 75)  
 
  39.31 in reply to 39.30  
 
umm? People didn't write this, God did. 
But I'm glad to see that it bothered you, and one more thing, I guess you do agree with Romans though. 

Oh yeah, and, I'm still believing what Leviticus says...thank you.

 Check out what the Holy Spirit is burning in the Holy Room! And see if you got the fire in you in my webpage!
 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/28/2001 3:48 pm  
To:  ManafterGod   (32 of 75)  
 
  39.32 in reply to 39.31  
 
umm? People didn't write this, God did. 
*yawn*

But I'm glad to see that it bothered you,

Why, that's very *christian* of you. I guess you were one of the guys that Steven was referring to that gets joy out of causing conflict. But don't get your nads in an excited bunch, what you believe doesn't bother me in the least, I find your superstitious hang-ups amusing.

Oh yeah, and, I'm still believing what Leviticus says...thank you. 

I wouldn't expect anything more from you. Thanks for living up to your potential, you are living way beyond your time.






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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/28/2001 4:49 pm  
To:  ManafterGod   (33 of 75)  
 
  39.33 in reply to 39.29  
 
"Blah! Blah! Blah! yachakady smackady Blah! Blah! Blah!" 
strange that's what I think of the bible, but you don't here me splurting it all over this board.


 
  
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  From:  ManafterGod   6/28/2001 8:38 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (34 of 75)  
 
  39.34 in reply to 39.33  
 
I really wished you didn't say that about the Bible. It's not me you're in trouble with, and it's not be you're hurting. 
Remember that if you finally realize God is real. Oh-kay? buh bye now.

 Check out what the Holy Spirit is burning in the Holy Room! And see if you got the fire in you in my webpage!
 
  
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  From:  jeans32   6/29/2001 3:37 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (35 of 75)  
 
  39.35 in reply to 39.8  
 
I know this is a late post, but I commend you on your response , God's will on homosexuality. It is true God created Adam and Eve. a helpmate for Adam. No where in the bible did I ever read about Adam and Steve. Heterophobics just want to justify there sin with any excuse they can. The human anatomy was not created to be used the way that gays have sex. Thats scientific. Why don't they look at those scientific views? It is always easy to pick and choose documentation that embraces the issue in favor of... The idea that people are born into one type of sexual behavior is entirely foolish. Homosexuality, is a behavior, not a condition, and something that some people can and do change, just like they sometimes change other tastes and personality traits. Anyway keep up the Lord' work, Jeans32 
 
  
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  From:  dismas13   6/29/2001 6:55 am  
To:  ManafterGod   (36 of 75)  
 
  39.36 in reply to 39.29  
 
Dear Manaftergod,correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it Christian doctrine that by "Faith Alone" we are saved?It's more worthy if we act upon that faith and live in a manner that would give witness to it,but Christ's death was enough to overcome all of our transgressions past, present, and future. Consequently, the "sin" that one commits by engaging in gay sex(considering that what makes it a sin is the unmarried status of the partners and not their gender),is equally offensive in the eyes of God as the heterosexual who has remarried(biblical exceptions excluded)and is committing the sin of adultery.Both are sinning,but both are saved.Not by what they do or by works as the Roman Catholics believe,but by their Faith pure and simple.Christ's death on the cross was sacrifice enough to compensate for the "sinners" of this world, gay or straight.Christ's gift of "amazing grace" supercedes any considerations of the Law.The Law is secondary to our salvation,while Jesus'sacrifice is preemminent. 
In addition to this,I would like to recommend to you a work by Father Daniel P. Helminiak PhD.,called "What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality".Since in your post you quoted the Bible, do you actually know what the verses you quoted are referring to? The Holiness Codes adheared to by the Aaronite priesthood of Israel, form the basis and context of those verses.The purpose of those codes were not predominantly "spiritual" or dealing with sin of a spiritual nature,but cultural transgressions.They were attempting to keep the children of Israel free from gentile influences, specifically with regard to gay sex which was accepted by the Canaanites.The Jews did not want to wind up like the Samaritans and become defiled, not because of spiritual sin but because of ethnic mixing.The Jewish culture and nation, needed to maintain it's purity.This along with dietary laws included in the Holiness Codes, were an attempt to avoid a "melting pot" effect from consuming the Jewish People's unique identity.Gay sex and or a lifestyle, would be considered by the Jews as an acceptance of a gentile(Canaanite) way of life.This was a sin and could not be tolerated.It would have the cumulative effect, of denying God his "Chosen People" as the Jews defined it.As Christians, we now know, that the "chosen" or the "spiritual descendants" of Abraham also includes gentiles, therefore prohibitions against percieved gentile lifestyles really is no longer set in the same context today as it was in biblical times.Verses you were pointing to that were written by New Testament authors,again were referring back to the maintenance of a cultural heritage which up until about the 2nd century A.D., they still shared with their Jewish bretheran(see Acts). 

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Edited 6/29/2001 10:07:21 AM ET by DISMAS13 
  
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  From:  ManafterGod   6/29/2001 7:32 am  
To:  dismas13   (37 of 75)  
 
  39.37 in reply to 39.36  
 
That was such an amazing, yet, touching story, however, you expect me to believe that devil-filled lie? 
Oh come on, it takes more to change my mind about wearing black in the summertime, than what you just thought up. If you think it's ok to be gay, then you got another thing coming for you brother/sister. 

the bottom line here is, I'm right, you're wrong, I serve a REAL God and you don't. 

toddles

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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/29/2001 7:47 am  
To:  ManafterGod   (38 of 75)  
 
  39.38 in reply to 39.37  
 
I'm talking about homophile relations ship, ergo a nonsexual gay relationship, nowhere in the bible does it say two men aren't allowed to love each other, mearly that they can't ly with each other ... so if they do 'it' standing they're not comitting a sin.

 
  
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  From:  dismas13   6/29/2001 8:00 am  
To:  ManafterGod   (39 of 75)  
 
  39.39 in reply to 39.37  
 
It's a shame that you talk the talk but can't walk the walk.Christian?You just make it more difficult for people to take Christianity seriously when you talk about religious issues in such a flippant way.Your trite response must mean that you don't take your faith seriously enough to defend it in a mature and intelligent way.In this you do your faith a grave disservice and mock the hard effort of others,who feel that they owe the Lord more than just lip service.Remember, what good does it do to know the words when you don't know the Word.The doctrine of salvation by "Faith Alone" is more than a story,it's the truth. 

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Edited 6/29/01 11:13:49 AM ET by DISMAS13 
  
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   From:  ManafterGod   6/29/2001 8:05 am  
To:  dismas13   (40 of 75)  
 
  39.40 in reply to 39.39  
 
Wow, how mature of you.

 Check out what the Holy Spirit is burning in the Holy Room! And see if you got the fire in you in my webpage! 
  
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  From:  dismas13   6/29/2001 8:14 am  
To:  ManafterGod   (41 of 75)  
 
  39.41 in reply to 39.40  
 
It must be the company that I'm keeping lately. 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   7/1/2001 3:59 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (43 of 75)  
 
  39.43 in reply to 39.41  
 
what did you censor this time?.

 
  
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  From:  M_DAuvergne   7/4/2001 6:28 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (44 of 75)  
 
  39.44 in reply to 39.19  
 
Ruth (RUTHMARX) wrote: 
"God did not create anyone to be homosexual. There are current studies that prove that homosexuals can change. These studies have been done by athiests not Christians." 
Okay, so if god did not create homosexuals, where did they come from? They couldn't be demons, because that is an awfully mean thing to say. Homosexuals are just people, like anyone else. I can't believe that you or anyone else would even care about someone's sexual preference, so long as it hurts no one. (As in the case of pedophiles, who, too, were made by god, by the way, for, by your logic, everyone is made by god. By MY logic, if something exists, it exists in nature, even the strongest of etherical entities known as 'gods', therefore, if something exists, it is natrual, exists in nature, and subbject to nature's unforgiving laws. So, if homosexuals exist [they do] then therefore they must be natrual. I don't even see why anyone would care about another's preference anyways...you ----)Je te remercie! 

~M. D'Auvergne 



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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/4/2001 7:17 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (45 of 75)  
 
  39.45 in reply to 39.44  
 
Since the claim has been made that Athiests have made these studies, would you be willing to name some names and groups that have proven such without the use of documented brainwashing techniques? 
Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    7/5/2001 8:42 am  
To:  M_DAuvergne   (46 of 75)  
 
  39.46 in reply to 39.44  
 
God did not create anyone to be a homosexual, He didn't create anyone to molest children either. Are you saying that pedophilia is an acceptable sexual practice? I would hope not. 
Ruth


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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    7/5/2001 8:45 am  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (47 of 75)  
 
  39.47 in reply to 39.45  
 
Psychiatrist to APA: Homosexuals Can Change 
By Mark Cowan, correspondent 
SUMMARY: The American Psychiatric Association (APA) is on record claiming that reparative therapy for homosexuals doesn't work. But that position is being seriously undermined by a new study from a very influential man. 
Columbia University psychiatry professor Dr. Robert Spitzer made a landmark presentation to the American Psychiatric Association (APA) on Wednesday. Spitzer told the nation's psychiatrists that his research shows homosexuals can change their sexual orientation. 

"I interviewed 200 subjects who claimed that they had changed their sexual attraction from homosexual to heterosexual," Spitzer said. "Essentially what we found is that first of all, in terms of sexual attraction, the vast majority had made major changes." 

Does that mean Spitzer believes homosexuals can change to heterosexuality? 

"Absolutely! Absolutely!" he said. "I approached this quite skeptical and I've been convinced otherwise." 

Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, president of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), said the findings are monumental -- and will be difficult to ignore. 

"This is clearly a historic event in the history of psychiatry's understanding of homosexuality," said Nicolosi. 

What makes Spitzer's new position so monumental is the fact that he was the chief architect in the APA's 1973 decision to remove homosexuality from its list of disorders. 

"In other words, he normalized homosexuality," Nicolosi said. 

One major question -- Was Dr. Spitzer's work influenced by a religious bias? 

"I am an atheist, Jewish, secular humanist," Spitzer said. "I was before this study, and I continue to be one now." 

He said there is no reason to believe that those he interviewed were lying about their change from homosexuality. The research included people with five years of recovery currently engaged in healthy 
heterosexual relationships. 

FOR MORE INFORMATION: To read more about Dr. Spitzer and the reversal of his position, see CitizenLink's Feb. 4, 2000, story, "A Crack in the Wall?": 
http://www.family.org/cforum/hotissues/a0009548.html 





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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   7/5/2001 8:58 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (48 of 75)  
 
  39.48 in reply to 39.46  
 
God did not create anyone to be a homosexual, He didn't create anyone to molest children either.
Uhhh, Ruthie? If you accept the existence of an all-powerful/all-controlling god, the YES, he DID create people to be homosexual and he DID create pedophiles; because they EXIST. And just like christians who keep telling non-xtians who ask questions regarding the "questionable" acts of a "merciful" god that it is impossible to see into the mind of god, you have to accept the same answer. He might have created homosexuals, but you will never know WHY he did it. Maybe it was as a test for you christians to test your tolerance and love, eh?

Are you saying that pedophilia is an acceptable sexual practice? I would hope not. 

Admitting that its existence and creation by your god does not equate to what we, as a society, agree is "acceptable". That is determined by the society. Indeed, today, there ARE societies where sex with children is deemed acceptable (in fact, I think it is still legal to marry a 13 year old in Georgia. No matter if the person is married or not, they are still a child when their spouse has legal sex with them. Elvis married Priscilla when she was 13...)






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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    7/5/2001 9:19 am  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (49 of 75)  
 
  39.49 in reply to 39.48  
 
God created man with freedom of choice. He is not responsible for the choices that you have made in your life. You have the choice to either accept Him or reject Him. It's your choice and you are responsible for your choice. Homosexuality is not the same as being short or tall, red headed or blonde. God is all powerful but He does not control the choices that we make. If you choose to be homosexual then it's your choice not God's. 
If we choose to reject the free gift of salvation then we choose to live for eternity without God. It's our choice. God isn't going to violate our choice. 

God wants to bless us beyond measure, pressed down, shaken together and over flowing. If we choose not to accept those blessings then God will not force them upon us. 

Ruth 


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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   7/5/2001 9:31 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (50 of 75)  
 
  39.50 in reply to 39.47  
 
An atheist jew? oxymoron alert!!! 
an atheist ---> a-= non- theos = god -ist = (in this case) believer 
ergo: an atheist is someone who believes there is no 'God' and that there can never be a 'God'. Jews don't just believe in God, they were the first to do so. 

so .....


 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    7/5/2001 9:40 am  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (51 of 75)  
 
  39.51 in reply to 39.50  
 
Someone can be of Jewish heritage and still be an atheist. I'm of Native American heritage but I don't worship the gods of my ancestors. 
Ruth


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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/5/2001 9:56 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (52 of 75)  
 
  39.52 in reply to 39.47  
 
That is the work of one psychologist. Psychology is a soft and politcally correct science very often. 
Since the statement by the APA in 1973 the AMA has done its own studies and found that homosexuality is also a 'genetic defect' and not purely mental in its origin. 

'atheist, Jewish, secular humanist' seems to be somewhat of an oxymoron since that would mean that he's an Athiest who believes in God AND the right of a human to decide for themself, yet in his statement he claims that homosexuality can be cured by those seeking a cure. 

Sounds kinda like Dr. Jack Kevorkian with his statements of relieving pain of the terminally ill... 

Al Kupone 



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Edited 7/5/01 1:13:10 PM ET by KUPONE 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   7/5/2001 11:00 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (53 of 75)  
 
  39.53 in reply to 39.49  
 
God created man with freedom of choice. He is not responsible for the choices that you have made in your life. You have the choice to either accept Him or reject Him. It's your choice and you are responsible for your choice. Homosexuality is not the same as being short or tall, red headed or blonde. God is all powerful but He does not control the choices that we make. 
This, of course, conflicts directly with the philosophies espoused in the old testament. (Hint: read about Egypt and the plagues...)

It also conflicts with many of your christian brethren's beliefs of the nature of their god, therefore it is only your opinion.






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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/5/2001 11:04 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (54 of 75)  
 
  39.54 in reply to 39.47  
 
One quick question; Since when did shrinks only interview people to conduct a diagnosis? They do that for beginning research, but often move on to standard tests. One thing you'd be quick to notice if you read more into the study is that most of Spitzer's colleagues thought that he not only jumped the gun but found his conclusion as nothing more than an opinion because he had no controls in the study. I also love how you left out the fact that the study was conducted in the beginning of the 70's! 
In most other studies done about Homosexual therapy, there was only a 5% change rate out of 100 people even with medication. Hardly enough to clearly say that Homosexuals can change and not nearly enough to call Homosexuallity a mental disorder. All mental disorders follow the Rule of Thirds (1/3 heal completely, 1/3 sorta-kinda get better, 1/3 never get better) which Homosexuality has never done under any scientific control even with medication and horomonal therapy. 

Also, just for information, homosexual activities are found in other species in nature. Wolves are a good example since male wolves will mount one another to show dominance. Rats are another good example since they'll actually rape one another. 
-The Mad Dr. Shock 



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Edited 7/5/01 2:07:04 PM ET by DR_SHOCK 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   7/5/2001 11:10 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (55 of 75)  
 
  39.55 in reply to 39.54  
 
Also, just for information, homosexual activities are found in other species in nature. Wolves are a good example since male wolves will mount one another to show dominance. Rats are another good example since they'll actually rape one another. 
Awww geez. Now you've gone and done it. You've compared humans to animals in front of Ruth again, so the old can o' worms has been opened once again...






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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/5/2001 11:51 am  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (56 of 75)  
 
  39.56 in reply to 39.55  
 
Have I mentioned the Cornell study yet? That would surely offend everyone. 
-The Mad Dr. Shock 



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Edited 7/5/01 2:52:17 PM ET by DR_SHOCK 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   7/5/2001 11:55 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (57 of 75)  
 
  39.57 in reply to 39.56  
 
Go ahead, mention it... 
(It's in-topic)






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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    7/5/2001 12:14 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (58 of 75)  
 
  39.58 in reply to 39.52  
 
It seems as though research is only valid if it supports your statements. 
"'atheist, Jewish, secular humanist' seems to be somewhat of an oxymoron since that would mean that he's an Athiest who believes in God AND the right of a human to decide for themself, yet in his statement he claims that homosexuality can be cured by those seeking a cure." 

How can you come to this conclusion? Does it say in the article that this man believes in God? How can belief in God mean that a human can not decide something for themselves? Looks like you are jumping to some conclusions here and coming up short. 

Ruth 




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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    7/5/2001 12:20 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (59 of 75)  
 
  39.59 in reply to 39.53  
 
"This, of course, conflicts directly with the philosophies espoused in the old testament. (Hint: read about Egypt and the plagues...)" 
What does this mean? Pharoh was still given the right to make a decision. 

"It also conflicts with many of your christian brethren's beliefs of the nature of their god, therefore it is only your opinion." 

It's my opinion backed up by the written word of God. I don't care if my beliefs are the same as other Christians or not. They are not the one I am desiring to please. I do not base my beliefs on what someone else thinks, wants or believes. I base my beliefs on what the Bible says. 

Ruth 




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   From:  Dr_Shock   7/5/2001 12:21 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (60 of 75)  
 
  39.60 in reply to 39.57  
 
THIS POST IS TO EVERYONE!!!! 
Terribly sorry. The study was done by the APA at the U of Georgia... But here it is! 

New Study Links Homophobia with Homosexual Arousal 

August 1996 

WASHINGTON -- Psychoanalytic theory holds that homophobia -- the fear, anxiety, anger, discomfort and aversion that some ostensibly heterosexual people hold for gay individuals -- is the result of repressed homosexual urges that the person is either unaware of or denies. A study appearing in the August 1996 issue of the Journal of 
Abnormal Psychology, published by the American Psychological Association (APA), provides new empirical evidence that is consistent with that theory. 

Researchers at the University of Georgia conducted an experiment involving 35 homophobic men and 29 nonhomophobic men as measured by the Index of Homophobia scale. All the participants selected for the study described themselves as exclusively heterosexual both in terms of sexual arousal and experience. 

Each participant was exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual and lesbian videotapes (but not necessarily in that order). Their degree of sexual arousal was measured by penile plethysmography, which precisely measures and records male tumescence. 

Men in both groups were aroused by about the same degree by the video depicting heterosexual sexual behavior and by the video showing two women engaged in sexual behavior. The only significant difference in degree of arousal between the two groups occurred when they viewed the video depicting male homosexual sex: 'The homophobic men showed a significant increase in penile circumference to the male homosexual video, but the control [nonhomophobic] men did not.' 

Broken down further, the measurements showed that while 66% of the nonhomophobic group showed no significant tumescence while watching the male homosexual video, only 20% of the homophobic men showed little or no evidence of arousal. Similarly, while 24% of the nonhomophobic men showed definite tumescence while watching the homosexual video, 54% of the homophobic men did. 

When asked to give their own subjective assessment of the degree to which they were aroused by watching each of the three videos, men in both groups gave answers that tracked fairly closely with the results of the objective physiological measurement, with one exception: the homophobic men significantly underestimated their degree of arousal by the male homosexual video. 

Do these findings mean, then, that homophobia in men is a reaction to repressed homosexual urges, as psychoanalysis theorizes? While their findings are consistent with that theory, the authors note that there is another, competing theoretical explanation: anxiety. According to this theory, viewing the male homosexual videotape may have caused negative emotions (such as anxiety) in the homophobic men, but not in the nonhomophobic men. As the authors note, 'anxiety has been shown to enhance arousal and erection,' and so it is also possible that 'a response to homosexual stimuli [in these men] is a function of the threat condition rather than sexual arousal per se. These competing notions can and should be evaluated by future research.' 

Article: 'Is Homophobia Associated With Homosexual Arousal?' by Henry E. Adams, Ph.D., Lester W. Wright, Jr., Ph.D. and Bethany A. Lohr, University of Georgia, in Journal of Abnormal Psychology, Vol. 105, No. 3, pp 440-445. 

(Full text available from the APA Public Affairs Office.) 

Taken from: http://www.apa.org/releases/homophob.html 


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    7/5/2001 12:28 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (61 of 75)  
 
  39.61 in reply to 39.54  
 
His original study was done in the 70's but his new study was recent, he made his conclusions within the last few months. In other words upon further research he has found that the original study was inacurate. 
Homosexuality is not a mental problem it's a spiritual problem. 

Concerning the comments about animals; if you wish to identify yourself with a rat, go right ahead. 

Ruth


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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/5/2001 1:00 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (62 of 75)  
 
  39.62 in reply to 39.61  
 
<<<His original study was done in the 70's but his new study was recent, he made his conclusions within the last few months. In other words upon further research he has found that the original study was inacurate.>>> 
Precisely why his reasearch was used later that year to strike homosexuality from the DSM as a mental problem. 

<<<Concerning the comments about animals; if you wish to identify yourself with a rat, go right ahead.>>> 

As usual, you resort to namecalling to try to make a point. Every species of mammal on the planet displays homosexual behavior, including humans. And yes, I do consider myself a mammal. 

Please make up your mind. Do you believe in fiction or that which has been proven? For examples, please see: http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/orient.html


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/5/2001 1:16 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (63 of 75)  
 
  39.63 in reply to 39.58  
 
<It seems as though research is only valid if it supports your statements.> 
Nowhere have I said that. I said simply that this was the statement of one man who has come to a conclusion based upon 'interviews' without even saying where or how this research or this cure was discovered. 

<How can you come to this conclusion? Does it say in the article that this man believes in God? How can belief in God mean that a human can not decide something for themselves? Looks like you are jumping to some conclusions here and coming up short.> 

Again, you chose to take the words and try to mix them up to defend yourself and prove a point that is Moot. My statement was that an Athiestic, Jewish, Secular Humanist means that he claims to be 1 - A person who believes there is no god, 2 - A Hebrew or Jew who believes in God and not Jesus (If he said he was Hebrew it would have been by descent only). and 3 - Of Human interests and values that are only for humans but with loyalty to no side... 

In Essence, He said he didn't want to fall into ANY catagory, man of god or man of man. 

Finally... 

<Homosexuality is not a mental problem it's a spiritual problem.> 

Funny, it has been proven that is can be genetic, it has been argued that it is also of mental origin and can be cured by techniques very similar to those used by cults and other groups that are known to utilize brainwashing. You though claim it is a blight upon the soul or a malady of the spirit. 

If this is th case then can a Priest cure homosexulity with a simple exorcism? Also, why did you choose to bring it up that it can be cured by psychology if it is not mental? 

Al Kupone 



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Edited 7/5/2001 4:20:51 PM ET by KUPONE 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    7/5/2001 1:20 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (64 of 75)  
 
  39.64 in reply to 39.62  
 
You say as usual I resort to name calling to make my point I have not been the one calling people names. Besides I didn't call you a rat, you compared yourself to one. 
This man's study in the 70's supported homosexuality. His further study has discovered that homosexuals can change if they choose too. 

Ruth


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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    7/5/2001 1:30 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (65 of 75)  
 
  39.65 in reply to 39.63  
 
Well would you have respected the research of a pastor? Obviously not since you don't respect this doctor's research. This doctor has been studying this obviously for some time now. His current research shows that the conclusions that he reached in '73 were inacurate. 
Ruth


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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/5/2001 1:33 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (66 of 75)  
 
  39.66 in reply to 39.64  
 
<<<This man's study in the 70's supported homosexuality. His further study has discovered that homosexuals can change if they choose too.>>> 
Please read the APA link in my pervious post. The American Psychological Association has agreed for years that Homosexuals can't change.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/5/2001 1:40 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (67 of 75)  
 
  39.67 in reply to 39.65  
 
Well would you have respected the research of a pastor? Obviously not since you don't respect this doctor's research. This doctor has been studying this obviously for some time now. His current research shows that the conclusions that he reached in '73 were inacurate. 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 

Where did I say I would not respect the research of a pastor if he also had experience and formed a respect in the community where he had made his research? Again, this looks more like you're tying to resort to name calling to explain away a lack of knowledge on the subject you have chosen to argue. As for his current research, I cannot say since I've not read his latest paper, but he was one of MULTIPLE psychologists who stated orrigianlly that homosexuality was not a mental disorder, one person changing thier mind after 20 individuals on the statement of it being possible to cure homosexuality is not enough to change the mind of a profession that has done more research since 1973 to verify the conclusions of the orriginal statement. Having a backgroud with Psychology myself (And not as a patient as I'm sure the retort has already been considered) I can say that while parts of what the homosexual person displays can be found as a sociological abberation, it has not been found to be a mental abberation. 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    7/5/2001 2:42 pm  
To:  ALL   (68 of 75)  
 
  39.68 in reply to 39.67  
 
I made one comment on a person putting himself on the same level as a rat and I'm labeled the name caller. I have been insulted throughout this thread and refrained from flame throwing, but I'm still labeled as being the name caller. Looks like a double standard to me. 
I see no reason to continue this discussion because it's going no where and I'm tired of repeating myself. 

Ruth


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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   7/5/2001 2:55 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (69 of 75)  
 
  39.69 in reply to 39.59  
 
What does this mean? Pharoh was still given the right to make a decision. 
NO!!! Read it again...






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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/5/2001 3:06 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (70 of 75)  
 
  39.70 in reply to 39.69  
 
NO!!! Read it again... 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 

It doesn't matter if that passage is read again, perception is something that colors almost everything, from what you read to what you see and even how you feel things. 

Example 1 - I fill a bucket with ice water and throw it on someone 'accidentally' after yelling 'boiling hot!' and they will react as though boiling water had been dumped upon them... 

Example 2 - I throw a rock at a tree, hit a branch and startle a bird out if it's nest and it squaks angrily at me. The child who saw the bird might saw that I threw a rock at the bird that had babies or eggs in th nest, another person will say I threw a rock at the tree and hit it, yet another person might say I was trying to hit th bird because I needed the food. It is all perpective and experience. 

Example 3 - I give a painting I've done, a poem or a chapter from a book I've written and ask people to tell me what I meant or thought when I wrote it, unless I'm speaking directly about everything in perfect detail (And that, by the way, is VERY difficult) it is doubtful that anyone will even get close to the meaning I'm trying to convey. 

All three versions of these examples have been proven and can be proven easily again and again. Much as like in these examples you also have to consider how th view of the writer and reader both are colored in a post. Ruth has made difficult statements without a sufficient backing and when she was set upon claims persecution and to have been labeled for her own words, even if it was not directly meant to sound or seem like name calling. Yet it definitely had th flavoring of such. It definitely was judgmental and seemed to be meant to get a reaction and now she has posted sounding like she is the one being persecuted... well, if she wants to feel persecuted, that is her decision and choice. 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   7/5/2001 3:12 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (71 of 75)  
 
  39.71 in reply to 39.60  
 
Thanks for providing that. 
So I guess what we can conclude is that your level of "closet gay-ness" is inversely proportional to the amount of compassion and tolerance you have for people who are gay. (With the exception of those who have embraced their gay sexuality openly). 

This seems to be supported by the APA. 

Let's try it out: Who here is TOLERANT of gays? Maybe Dr. Shock, Al Kupone, Seabren and Deathwish. Must be level-headed hets confident of their sexuality. 

Hmmmmm... 

Now who here is MOST LIKELY to be CLOSET GAY, based on the findings of the APA? Who here has the most HOSTILITY toward gays? 

Hmmmmm...






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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/5/2001 4:19 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (73 of 75)  
 
  39.73 in reply to 39.68  
 
<<<I made one comment on a person putting himself on the same level as a rat and I'm labeled the name caller. I have been insulted throughout this thread and refrained from flame throwing, but I'm still labeled as being the name caller. Looks like a double standard to me.>>> 
(First off, I'm a she) I'll fully admit to being on the same level with a rat for most biological functions since both the rat and myself ar mammals. The only real difference between the rat and me is size and higher brain function. However, basic biological and biochemical processes are pretty much the same. 

I've never flamed you. Just asked you questions.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   7/6/2001 2:25 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (74 of 75)  
 
  39.74 in reply to 39.70  
 
It doesn't matter if that passage is read again, perception is something that colors almost everything, from what you read to what you see and even how you feel things. 
Well, if something as plain as "God made Pharoah see only..." can be interpreted as Pharoah having independent choice from god, then I guess discussion is futile.






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   From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/6/2001 3:31 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (75 of 75)  
 
  39.75 in reply to 39.74  
 
It doesn't matter if that passage is read again, perception is something that colors almost everything, from what you read to what you see and even how you feel things. 
------- 
Well, if something as plain as "God made Pharoah see only..." can be interpreted as Pharoah having independent choice from god, then I guess discussion is futile. 
-=-=-=-=-=-= 

That's one way to put it. Yeah. People tend to ignore what they don't want to see or admit to. 

Al Kupone
 
  
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